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	<title>Comments on: The long delayed Sonia post</title>
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	<description>Where I torture reality till it confesses the truth</description>
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		<title>By: Sleisha Cuppax Fundaes (w)Only &#187; Blog Archive &#187; I Want to be a Cultural Nationalist</title>
		<link>http://www.ravikiran.com/blog/classic/200405/the-long-delayed-sonia-post/comment-page-1/#comment-81252</link>
		<dc:creator>Sleisha Cuppax Fundaes (w)Only &#187; Blog Archive &#187; I Want to be a Cultural Nationalist</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 25 Sep 2007 03:59:42 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://server97.snhdns.com/~ravik/wp/?p=53#comment-81252</guid>
		<description>[...] than three years ago, Ravikiran inserted these lines into a blogpost about why Sonia shouldn&#8217;t be PM: But nationalism isn’t discovered, it is constructed. Every generation finds things we have in [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] than three years ago, Ravikiran inserted these lines into a blogpost about why Sonia shouldn&#8217;t be PM: But nationalism isn’t discovered, it is constructed. Every generation finds things we have in [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Gautam Bastian</title>
		<link>http://www.ravikiran.com/blog/classic/200405/the-long-delayed-sonia-post/comment-page-1/#comment-226</link>
		<dc:creator>Gautam Bastian</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 01 Jan 1970 00:00:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://server97.snhdns.com/~ravik/wp/?p=53#comment-226</guid>
		<description>Many of the questions you raise about Sonia are valid, but to my mind quite easily answered. I don&#039;t think she or Rajiv intended on settling in India let alone entering politics. Sanjay was the heir apparent, he had even made the moves that clearly signalled that. It was only two consecutive deaths that kind of fast-tracked Rajiv and then Sonia into politics. Sonia then lost her husband to Indian politics, that is a tremendous loss. I can&#039;t imagine losing a close family member in a such a public way. 

Subsequently, though Rao was able to keep the government together for 5 years the Congress disintegrated around him and when Kesari took over matters got worse. Remember Cong(Tiwari), Scindia&#039;s MP Vikas Congress, Tamil Manila Congress and I think Trinamool was also part of that phase. Now when she did com into politics to lead the INC, she did not at first make matters better, there was the NCP which formed quite promptly. But subsequently she seems to have consolidated the party and put it on a war path so to speak. Thus far the gains have been modest, the congress has only as many seats this time as it had in the 12th Lok Sabha, but its up nearly 30 since the 13th. 

Also the spread and success of her coalitions seems to have been quite spectacular. A person who has no understanding of India would not have been able to make such moves. 

About her not learning hindi in 40 years, she wasn&#039;t exaclty living in a mohalla, she spent most of that time in the modern day fortress that is 10 Janpath.

You might consider the BJP the bastion of nationalism, but maybe that has to do with your relative solace at being from the majority community. Being a Catholic, the BJP and RSS rhetoric is spine chilling. The possibility of being declared a foriegner, or having my loyalties adjudged by some extremist yardstick is not my most cherished dream. There is no secular wing in the BJP, there is a rabid wing and a politically astute wing. 

If you see the caste stats from the Mandal Commission, there are only 16 to 17% upper caste Hindus in the country, which is where the core support for the BJP comes from, in order to get a chance at power the appeal has to be broadened and the message has to be diluted. 

The Parliamentary system does not require a mandate for a particular person, the MPs are elected on whatever platform they fight, and they are vested with the right to elect the PM. Which is what allows the wise Dr. Singh to be the PM despite having lost his one chance to get into the LS.

On another note, I continue to be impressed by the seeming disorder of the UPA coalition, which I think is indicative of a far more transparent governing process. (My favourite minister is S. Jaipal Reddy, loved him when he was with the UF too) This is how democratic governments shoul function through public debate, not through closed door complicity.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Many of the questions you raise about Sonia are valid, but to my mind quite easily answered. I don&#8217;t think she or Rajiv intended on settling in India let alone entering politics. Sanjay was the heir apparent, he had even made the moves that clearly signalled that. It was only two consecutive deaths that kind of fast-tracked Rajiv and then Sonia into politics. Sonia then lost her husband to Indian politics, that is a tremendous loss. I can&#8217;t imagine losing a close family member in a such a public way. </p>
<p>Subsequently, though Rao was able to keep the government together for 5 years the Congress disintegrated around him and when Kesari took over matters got worse. Remember Cong(Tiwari), Scindia&#8217;s MP Vikas Congress, Tamil Manila Congress and I think Trinamool was also part of that phase. Now when she did com into politics to lead the INC, she did not at first make matters better, there was the NCP which formed quite promptly. But subsequently she seems to have consolidated the party and put it on a war path so to speak. Thus far the gains have been modest, the congress has only as many seats this time as it had in the 12th Lok Sabha, but its up nearly 30 since the 13th. </p>
<p>Also the spread and success of her coalitions seems to have been quite spectacular. A person who has no understanding of India would not have been able to make such moves. </p>
<p>About her not learning hindi in 40 years, she wasn&#8217;t exaclty living in a mohalla, she spent most of that time in the modern day fortress that is 10 Janpath.</p>
<p>You might consider the BJP the bastion of nationalism, but maybe that has to do with your relative solace at being from the majority community. Being a Catholic, the BJP and RSS rhetoric is spine chilling. The possibility of being declared a foriegner, or having my loyalties adjudged by some extremist yardstick is not my most cherished dream. There is no secular wing in the BJP, there is a rabid wing and a politically astute wing. </p>
<p>If you see the caste stats from the Mandal Commission, there are only 16 to 17% upper caste Hindus in the country, which is where the core support for the BJP comes from, in order to get a chance at power the appeal has to be broadened and the message has to be diluted. </p>
<p>The Parliamentary system does not require a mandate for a particular person, the MPs are elected on whatever platform they fight, and they are vested with the right to elect the PM. Which is what allows the wise Dr. Singh to be the PM despite having lost his one chance to get into the LS.</p>
<p>On another note, I continue to be impressed by the seeming disorder of the UPA coalition, which I think is indicative of a far more transparent governing process. (My favourite minister is S. Jaipal Reddy, loved him when he was with the UF too) This is how democratic governments shoul function through public debate, not through closed door complicity.</p>
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		<title>By: Gautam Bastian</title>
		<link>http://www.ravikiran.com/blog/classic/200405/the-long-delayed-sonia-post/comment-page-1/#comment-227</link>
		<dc:creator>Gautam Bastian</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 01 Jan 1970 00:00:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://server97.snhdns.com/~ravik/wp/?p=53#comment-227</guid>
		<description>CORRIGENDA, SJR ties for #2 with the PM, Thiru Chidambaram is #1.

SJR I remember had said during the UF ministry, that his job was to close down the Ministry. Had Swaraj not happened to I&amp;B, he would probably have suceeded. This time around he said that he is not going to control what is shown on TV. I can&#039;t think of more liberal noises that he could make.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>CORRIGENDA, SJR ties for #2 with the PM, Thiru Chidambaram is #1.</p>
<p>SJR I remember had said during the UF ministry, that his job was to close down the Ministry. Had Swaraj not happened to I&#038;B, he would probably have suceeded. This time around he said that he is not going to control what is shown on TV. I can&#8217;t think of more liberal noises that he could make.</p>
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		<title>By: Ravikiran Rao</title>
		<link>http://www.ravikiran.com/blog/classic/200405/the-long-delayed-sonia-post/comment-page-1/#comment-228</link>
		<dc:creator>Ravikiran Rao</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 01 Jan 1970 00:00:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://server97.snhdns.com/~ravik/wp/?p=53#comment-228</guid>
		<description>Gautam,
The reasons that you give, even if true still disqualify her in my book.  If you want a job as important as the Prime Minister of India, I will look at your entire record of your commitment to India. If she was reluctant to stay in India, reluctant to join politics, what claim does she have to the job? And as for your reasons for her not knowing the language, as I already pointed out, it reflects the fact that she did not make an *effort*. I am not saying that we should deport someone who lives in Delhi for 40 years and does not learn Hindi. I am only saying that we should ask some serious questions before we let them be PM.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Gautam,<br />
The reasons that you give, even if true still disqualify her in my book.  If you want a job as important as the Prime Minister of India, I will look at your entire record of your commitment to India. If she was reluctant to stay in India, reluctant to join politics, what claim does she have to the job? And as for your reasons for her not knowing the language, as I already pointed out, it reflects the fact that she did not make an *effort*. I am not saying that we should deport someone who lives in Delhi for 40 years and does not learn Hindi. I am only saying that we should ask some serious questions before we let them be PM.</p>
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		<title>By: Gautam Bastian</title>
		<link>http://www.ravikiran.com/blog/classic/200405/the-long-delayed-sonia-post/comment-page-1/#comment-229</link>
		<dc:creator>Gautam Bastian</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 01 Jan 1970 00:00:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://server97.snhdns.com/~ravik/wp/?p=53#comment-229</guid>
		<description>The serious answer to the serious questions is that her worst fears came true, she lost her husband. After which point she had plenty of time to exile herself from India, much like she did from the Congress. But for whatever reason she did not. Subsequently after the party had seen much infighting and was by all means like a plane with all engines down, with all the passengers waiting restlessly for the end, she stepped in and has since revived that party. Her patriotism is atleast signalled by her decision to stay in India post-1991, and her political acumen - much of it flowing from the clout of her family - has been proven since. 

I don&#039;t think you need much experience in running a country in advance of ascending to the post of PM. Understanding the country is also overated. Think Gujral on the first count, and Nehru on the second. What you do need is the respect of those who support you and your government, which she has. If experience was a criterion for high position then NT RamaRao would not have won elections in AP in 1983, a few months after floating the TDP, nor would Navin Patnaik be running his second term in Orissa. I don&#039;t think even Biju won two consecutive terms while her was alive (though I am not sure). 

What you need to be PM is the will, the respect and confidence of your supporters, which she has. The elections are organised with the objective of ascertaining the will of the people, which is entrusted to Parliament during its tenure. If a majority of members of Parliament believe that she is fit to be PM, then despite any conscientious objections from reasoners like yourself or emotional animals like Swaraj and Bharati will not make any difference.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The serious answer to the serious questions is that her worst fears came true, she lost her husband. After which point she had plenty of time to exile herself from India, much like she did from the Congress. But for whatever reason she did not. Subsequently after the party had seen much infighting and was by all means like a plane with all engines down, with all the passengers waiting restlessly for the end, she stepped in and has since revived that party. Her patriotism is atleast signalled by her decision to stay in India post-1991, and her political acumen &#8211; much of it flowing from the clout of her family &#8211; has been proven since. </p>
<p>I don&#8217;t think you need much experience in running a country in advance of ascending to the post of PM. Understanding the country is also overated. Think Gujral on the first count, and Nehru on the second. What you do need is the respect of those who support you and your government, which she has. If experience was a criterion for high position then NT RamaRao would not have won elections in AP in 1983, a few months after floating the TDP, nor would Navin Patnaik be running his second term in Orissa. I don&#8217;t think even Biju won two consecutive terms while her was alive (though I am not sure). </p>
<p>What you need to be PM is the will, the respect and confidence of your supporters, which she has. The elections are organised with the objective of ascertaining the will of the people, which is entrusted to Parliament during its tenure. If a majority of members of Parliament believe that she is fit to be PM, then despite any conscientious objections from reasoners like yourself or emotional animals like Swaraj and Bharati will not make any difference.</p>
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		<title>By: Ravages</title>
		<link>http://www.ravikiran.com/blog/classic/200405/the-long-delayed-sonia-post/comment-page-1/#comment-230</link>
		<dc:creator>Ravages</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 01 Jan 1970 00:00:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://server97.snhdns.com/~ravik/wp/?p=53#comment-230</guid>
		<description>&lt;blockquote&gt;What you do need is the respect of those who support you and your government, which she has&lt;/blockquote&gt;

I dont think it is respect. What she has is the mindless doormats prostrating in front of her, in the hope of being given something to do with their lives.

Sonia has got absolutely no respect, If you ask me. All that pleading and the &quot;tamasha&quot; we saw on TV was just a stupid, shameless play by the politicians.

True, the BJP did go to an extreme with it&#039;s views on nationalism and Hindutva, but it commanded a much higher respect, especially Mr. Vajpayee, than Sonia will ever.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<blockquote><p>What you do need is the respect of those who support you and your government, which she has</p></blockquote>
<p>I dont think it is respect. What she has is the mindless doormats prostrating in front of her, in the hope of being given something to do with their lives.</p>
<p>Sonia has got absolutely no respect, If you ask me. All that pleading and the &#8220;tamasha&#8221; we saw on TV was just a stupid, shameless play by the politicians.</p>
<p>True, the BJP did go to an extreme with it&#8217;s views on nationalism and Hindutva, but it commanded a much higher respect, especially Mr. Vajpayee, than Sonia will ever.</p>
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		<title>By: Sandeep</title>
		<link>http://www.ravikiran.com/blog/classic/200405/the-long-delayed-sonia-post/comment-page-1/#comment-231</link>
		<dc:creator>Sandeep</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 01 Jan 1970 00:00:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://server97.snhdns.com/~ravik/wp/?p=53#comment-231</guid>
		<description>I go with Ravages. The so-called &quot;revival&quot; and &quot;massive victory&quot; of the Congress has very little to attribute to Sonia&#039;s skills. Let&#039;s discard her Hindi abilities and look at the reality: can she, on her own, deliver an impromptu speech in the way Vajpayee or Advani does? What&#039;s her take on any policy that affects the people? In fact, she was famously shown to be fumbling at EVERY interview on TV and newspapers--fumbling and look askance at her more accomplished colleagues--Manmohan et al to do the proxy-answering for here.

Power corrupts, absolute power corrupts absolutely: this answers your question about her not getting out of India in 1991. It is only because the sycophants promised that they&#039;ll make her PM that she stayed back. The lure was too much. Now, she seems to have realized that being a PM is not as easy as eating pizza. Why did she refuse to become PM immediately AFTER meeting Kalam? 

Another point about her revving up the Congress. The Congress was as you pointed out, WITHOUT the Gandhi-Nehru tag leading them. Else, couldn&#039;t the entire party find just ONE capable leader to fill the void left by Rajiv? Why go back to 10 Janpath if you are so sure of the Congress&#039; credentials? The answer is obvious: the party didn&#039;t. It had lost its spine to function without the coveted tag. Moreover, it was their last chance: hence pre-poll and now, post-poll sycophancy.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I go with Ravages. The so-called &#8220;revival&#8221; and &#8220;massive victory&#8221; of the Congress has very little to attribute to Sonia&#8217;s skills. Let&#8217;s discard her Hindi abilities and look at the reality: can she, on her own, deliver an impromptu speech in the way Vajpayee or Advani does? What&#8217;s her take on any policy that affects the people? In fact, she was famously shown to be fumbling at EVERY interview on TV and newspapers&#8211;fumbling and look askance at her more accomplished colleagues&#8211;Manmohan et al to do the proxy-answering for here.</p>
<p>Power corrupts, absolute power corrupts absolutely: this answers your question about her not getting out of India in 1991. It is only because the sycophants promised that they&#8217;ll make her PM that she stayed back. The lure was too much. Now, she seems to have realized that being a PM is not as easy as eating pizza. Why did she refuse to become PM immediately AFTER meeting Kalam? </p>
<p>Another point about her revving up the Congress. The Congress was as you pointed out, WITHOUT the Gandhi-Nehru tag leading them. Else, couldn&#8217;t the entire party find just ONE capable leader to fill the void left by Rajiv? Why go back to 10 Janpath if you are so sure of the Congress&#8217; credentials? The answer is obvious: the party didn&#8217;t. It had lost its spine to function without the coveted tag. Moreover, it was their last chance: hence pre-poll and now, post-poll sycophancy.</p>
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		<title>By: Ravikiran Rao</title>
		<link>http://www.ravikiran.com/blog/classic/200405/the-long-delayed-sonia-post/comment-page-1/#comment-232</link>
		<dc:creator>Ravikiran Rao</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 01 Jan 1970 00:00:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://server97.snhdns.com/~ravik/wp/?p=53#comment-232</guid>
		<description>Gautam, you are spinning so much that I am surprised you haven&#039;t felt giddy yet.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Gautam, you are spinning so much that I am surprised you haven&#8217;t felt giddy yet.</p>
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		<title>By: Pradna</title>
		<link>http://www.ravikiran.com/blog/classic/200405/the-long-delayed-sonia-post/comment-page-1/#comment-233</link>
		<dc:creator>Pradna</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 01 Jan 1970 00:00:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://server97.snhdns.com/~ravik/wp/?p=53#comment-233</guid>
		<description>Interesting article. Let me comment on the subject of Secular vs. Religious nationality. You said that &quot;Religious nationalists&#039; approach to nationalism is to dig deep into the past and discover something that unites us, and use that as a basis for nationalism. But nationalism isn&#039;t discovered, it is constructed.&quot; 

I don&#039;t think this is entirely true. Nationalism needs both of these things. A common past, present, and future. &#039;Constructing nationalism&#039; has nothing to do with the past. For a healthy nationalism you need to have a common past when your ancestors shared sorrows and happiness, when they worked together towards common goals. If this was not the case, why don&#039;t we see nations being formed every now and then ? Can some Indians, Americans, Chinese come together, and form their own nation because they seek a common future and are ready to &#039;construct natinalism&#039; ?  Bangladesh (then east pakistan) could not stay with Pakistan mainly because Bangladeshis and pakistanis didn&#039;t have a common past. Every nation differs in its culture, but then what&#039;s a culture ? Isn&#039;t it a style of living and thinking evolved over centuries ?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Interesting article. Let me comment on the subject of Secular vs. Religious nationality. You said that &#8220;Religious nationalists&#8217; approach to nationalism is to dig deep into the past and discover something that unites us, and use that as a basis for nationalism. But nationalism isn&#8217;t discovered, it is constructed.&#8221; </p>
<p>I don&#8217;t think this is entirely true. Nationalism needs both of these things. A common past, present, and future. &#8216;Constructing nationalism&#8217; has nothing to do with the past. For a healthy nationalism you need to have a common past when your ancestors shared sorrows and happiness, when they worked together towards common goals. If this was not the case, why don&#8217;t we see nations being formed every now and then ? Can some Indians, Americans, Chinese come together, and form their own nation because they seek a common future and are ready to &#8216;construct natinalism&#8217; ?  Bangladesh (then east pakistan) could not stay with Pakistan mainly because Bangladeshis and pakistanis didn&#8217;t have a common past. Every nation differs in its culture, but then what&#8217;s a culture ? Isn&#8217;t it a style of living and thinking evolved over centuries ?</p>
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		<title>By: Gaurav</title>
		<link>http://www.ravikiran.com/blog/classic/200405/the-long-delayed-sonia-post/comment-page-1/#comment-234</link>
		<dc:creator>Gaurav</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 01 Jan 1970 00:00:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://server97.snhdns.com/~ravik/wp/?p=53#comment-234</guid>
		<description>A question -

Are you merely saying that Sonia should not be supported by Indians as a PM, or are you asking for specific legislation banning people of foreign origin?

If it is the former, then there is no problem. I wanted the BJP government to fall for the single issue of MMJ. But that does not mean I advocate banning loony Rightwing-Socialists(!!) constitutionally.

I think one reason that Sonia has been by and large accepted by Indians as a PM or even a national leader (mind you, just educated net-using public is not India), it is because while she may not have taken efforts long enough to become a 100% Indian, but her efforts have been enough to de-Italy-ise her in everyone&#039;s eyes.

Since her Italianness has not been an eyesore ever since she entered the public eye in 1980 or so, people accept her.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>A question -</p>
<p>Are you merely saying that Sonia should not be supported by Indians as a PM, or are you asking for specific legislation banning people of foreign origin?</p>
<p>If it is the former, then there is no problem. I wanted the BJP government to fall for the single issue of MMJ. But that does not mean I advocate banning loony Rightwing-Socialists(!!) constitutionally.</p>
<p>I think one reason that Sonia has been by and large accepted by Indians as a PM or even a national leader (mind you, just educated net-using public is not India), it is because while she may not have taken efforts long enough to become a 100% Indian, but her efforts have been enough to de-Italy-ise her in everyone&#8217;s eyes.</p>
<p>Since her Italianness has not been an eyesore ever since she entered the public eye in 1980 or so, people accept her.</p>
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