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	<title>Comments on: Zero is a Fraction Too</title>
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	<link>http://www.ravikiran.com/blog/classic/200712/zero-is-a-fraction-too/</link>
	<description>Where I torture reality till it confesses the truth</description>
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		<title>By: pravin</title>
		<link>http://www.ravikiran.com/blog/classic/200712/zero-is-a-fraction-too/comment-page-1/#comment-118399</link>
		<dc:creator>pravin</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 09 Feb 2010 09:23:38 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.ravikiran.com/blog/classic/200712/zero-is-a-fraction-too/#comment-118399</guid>
		<description>i think 7*6 pwned you suitably,amigo.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>i think 7*6 pwned you suitably,amigo.</p>
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		<title>By: Ravikiran Rao</title>
		<link>http://www.ravikiran.com/blog/classic/200712/zero-is-a-fraction-too/comment-page-1/#comment-86706</link>
		<dc:creator>Ravikiran Rao</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 19 Dec 2007 05:13:56 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.ravikiran.com/blog/classic/200712/zero-is-a-fraction-too/#comment-86706</guid>
		<description>&quot;If it is indeed investment, then the returns on said investment *should be shared with the depositors* no?&quot;

If I read you literally, the answer to that question is &quot;yes&quot;.   But if you meant &quot;risk&quot; instead of &quot;return&quot; in the above question, then the answer is &quot;no&quot;.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;If it is indeed investment, then the returns on said investment *should be shared with the depositors* no?&#8221;</p>
<p>If I read you literally, the answer to that question is &#8220;yes&#8221;.   But if you meant &#8220;risk&#8221; instead of &#8220;return&#8221; in the above question, then the answer is &#8220;no&#8221;.</p>
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		<title>By: 7*6</title>
		<link>http://www.ravikiran.com/blog/classic/200712/zero-is-a-fraction-too/comment-page-1/#comment-86677</link>
		<dc:creator>7*6</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 18 Dec 2007 17:30:34 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.ravikiran.com/blog/classic/200712/zero-is-a-fraction-too/#comment-86677</guid>
		<description>&lt;i&gt;You are assuming that approximately zero interest should mean approximately zero risk regardless of the term of the investment.&lt;/i&gt;

I know I make hastily worded comments, but look at the entire comment, I was walking along the X axis of the yield curve, I started off with &quot;on demand&quot; deposits meaning no term restrictions, etcetera. 

so, rest assured, I was not disregarding term of investment. and that I was not conflating 20 year desposits and checking accounts.

let&#039;s get back to your more interesting second point:

why do you think FRB is close to zero risk? It is investment no? If it is indeed investment, then the returns on said investment *should be shared with the depositors* no?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><i>You are assuming that approximately zero interest should mean approximately zero risk regardless of the term of the investment.</i></p>
<p>I know I make hastily worded comments, but look at the entire comment, I was walking along the X axis of the yield curve, I started off with &#8220;on demand&#8221; deposits meaning no term restrictions, etcetera. </p>
<p>so, rest assured, I was not disregarding term of investment. and that I was not conflating 20 year desposits and checking accounts.</p>
<p>let&#8217;s get back to your more interesting second point:</p>
<p>why do you think FRB is close to zero risk? It is investment no? If it is indeed investment, then the returns on said investment *should be shared with the depositors* no?</p>
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		<title>By: Ravikiran Rao</title>
		<link>http://www.ravikiran.com/blog/classic/200712/zero-is-a-fraction-too/comment-page-1/#comment-86653</link>
		<dc:creator>Ravikiran Rao</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 18 Dec 2007 11:06:48 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.ravikiran.com/blog/classic/200712/zero-is-a-fraction-too/#comment-86653</guid>
		<description>First point:
&quot;The yield curve is my friend here RR.
It says: on demand and “liquid” deposits give ~zero interest.
My point: so there should be ~zero risk investment on part of the bank — this would preclude fractional reserves wunnit?&quot;
What am I supposed to make of this line? You are assuming that approximately zero interest should mean approximately zero risk regardless of the term of the investment.

Second point: Why are you assuming without any evidence that FRB is high risk?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>First point:<br />
&#8220;The yield curve is my friend here RR.<br />
It says: on demand and “liquid” deposits give ~zero interest.<br />
My point: so there should be ~zero risk investment on part of the bank — this would preclude fractional reserves wunnit?&#8221;<br />
What am I supposed to make of this line? You are assuming that approximately zero interest should mean approximately zero risk regardless of the term of the investment.</p>
<p>Second point: Why are you assuming without any evidence that FRB is high risk?</p>
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		<title>By: 7*6</title>
		<link>http://www.ravikiran.com/blog/classic/200712/zero-is-a-fraction-too/comment-page-1/#comment-86650</link>
		<dc:creator>7*6</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 18 Dec 2007 09:46:26 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.ravikiran.com/blog/classic/200712/zero-is-a-fraction-too/#comment-86650</guid>
		<description>&lt;i&gt; Finally, you may say that part of the low risk is because the RBI guarantees... &lt;/i&gt;

finally!
Contrary to your suspicions, I was not confusedly conflating terms and durations of investments. I do not know what gave you that idea. Let us set aside your moral hazard comment -- interesting as it is -- for the moment and get back to my remark in an earlier comment:

no matter the term of investment, bank inestments have ~ zero risk to the consumer (how can it be &quot;low&quot; when it is fully backed by RBI in India, FDIC in US) Under this guise the banks give a low return. You say this is &quot;as it should be&quot;.
But wait -- the point was that the bank is indulging in fractional reserve banking, and ergo higher risk investment. Which is insured by RBI/FDIC.
The banks seem to be getting a free ride.
Do you not see a problem in this?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><i> Finally, you may say that part of the low risk is because the RBI guarantees&#8230; </i></p>
<p>finally!<br />
Contrary to your suspicions, I was not confusedly conflating terms and durations of investments. I do not know what gave you that idea. Let us set aside your moral hazard comment &#8212; interesting as it is &#8212; for the moment and get back to my remark in an earlier comment:</p>
<p>no matter the term of investment, bank inestments have ~ zero risk to the consumer (how can it be &#8220;low&#8221; when it is fully backed by RBI in India, FDIC in US) Under this guise the banks give a low return. You say this is &#8220;as it should be&#8221;.<br />
But wait &#8212; the point was that the bank is indulging in fractional reserve banking, and ergo higher risk investment. Which is insured by RBI/FDIC.<br />
The banks seem to be getting a free ride.<br />
Do you not see a problem in this?</p>
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		<title>By: Ravikiran Rao</title>
		<link>http://www.ravikiran.com/blog/classic/200712/zero-is-a-fraction-too/comment-page-1/#comment-86643</link>
		<dc:creator>Ravikiran Rao</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 18 Dec 2007 07:42:17 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.ravikiran.com/blog/classic/200712/zero-is-a-fraction-too/#comment-86643</guid>
		<description>OK, in the first place, you did not grasp the fact that the risk-return trade-off holds ONLY WHEN YOU KEEP THE TERM CONSTANT. You cannot compare a corporate bond with a 3-day maturity with a government bond with one year maturity, find that the corporate bond gives you a lower yield, and conclude that the corporate bond carries lower risk. You have to compare 3-day corporate bond with a 3-day government bond. That is the whole idea of a yield curve. The yield curve is the curve for risk-free returns. It is drawn by looking at the returns given by government bonds vs. their maturity periods. 

In the second place, you&#039;ve moved to fixed deposits and are now asking why they give such low returns. The answer is: they are low risk, because their default rate is low. No, they are not zero risk, but the difference is small enough for the average consumer to ignore. No, they do not give a lower return than government bonds,  but yes, they do give a lower return than any other kind of investment, which is as it should be. 

Finally, you may say that part of the low risk is because the RBI guarantees the safety of the deposits. Yes it does, but this works both ways. Government insurance must increase the moral hazard for banks. If even after this the probability of a bank going bellyup is so low as it is now, then banks would have an even lower default rate if they were not insued.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>OK, in the first place, you did not grasp the fact that the risk-return trade-off holds ONLY WHEN YOU KEEP THE TERM CONSTANT. You cannot compare a corporate bond with a 3-day maturity with a government bond with one year maturity, find that the corporate bond gives you a lower yield, and conclude that the corporate bond carries lower risk. You have to compare 3-day corporate bond with a 3-day government bond. That is the whole idea of a yield curve. The yield curve is the curve for risk-free returns. It is drawn by looking at the returns given by government bonds vs. their maturity periods. </p>
<p>In the second place, you&#8217;ve moved to fixed deposits and are now asking why they give such low returns. The answer is: they are low risk, because their default rate is low. No, they are not zero risk, but the difference is small enough for the average consumer to ignore. No, they do not give a lower return than government bonds,  but yes, they do give a lower return than any other kind of investment, which is as it should be. </p>
<p>Finally, you may say that part of the low risk is because the RBI guarantees the safety of the deposits. Yes it does, but this works both ways. Government insurance must increase the moral hazard for banks. If even after this the probability of a bank going bellyup is so low as it is now, then banks would have an even lower default rate if they were not insued.</p>
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		<title>By: 7*6</title>
		<link>http://www.ravikiran.com/blog/classic/200712/zero-is-a-fraction-too/comment-page-1/#comment-86637</link>
		<dc:creator>7*6</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 18 Dec 2007 06:15:58 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.ravikiran.com/blog/classic/200712/zero-is-a-fraction-too/#comment-86637</guid>
		<description>eh, you know my tone is usually brusque like that, but that I&#039;m not debate-point-ifying right?
I really am leery of the risk nullification I stated above.

I thought I was expansive enough in previous comment no -- all along the yield curve, consumer banks give lower yields, e.g. even with n yr fixed deposits, and consumers are ok with that because all along the yield curve, they view these deposits as having &quot;zero risk&quot;. How can it be so?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>eh, you know my tone is usually brusque like that, but that I&#8217;m not debate-point-ifying right?<br />
I really am leery of the risk nullification I stated above.</p>
<p>I thought I was expansive enough in previous comment no &#8212; all along the yield curve, consumer banks give lower yields, e.g. even with n yr fixed deposits, and consumers are ok with that because all along the yield curve, they view these deposits as having &#8220;zero risk&#8221;. How can it be so?</p>
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		<title>By: Ravikiran Rao</title>
		<link>http://www.ravikiran.com/blog/classic/200712/zero-is-a-fraction-too/comment-page-1/#comment-86633</link>
		<dc:creator>Ravikiran Rao</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 18 Dec 2007 04:50:42 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.ravikiran.com/blog/classic/200712/zero-is-a-fraction-too/#comment-86633</guid>
		<description>Ayyo! 
When I explain a concept, try to understand it. Don&#039;t scan it looking for debating points to use against me.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Ayyo!<br />
When I explain a concept, try to understand it. Don&#8217;t scan it looking for debating points to use against me.</p>
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		<title>By: 7*6</title>
		<link>http://www.ravikiran.com/blog/classic/200712/zero-is-a-fraction-too/comment-page-1/#comment-86607</link>
		<dc:creator>7*6</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 17 Dec 2007 17:58:24 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.ravikiran.com/blog/classic/200712/zero-is-a-fraction-too/#comment-86607</guid>
		<description>something doesn&#039;t add up...

1. fractional reserves ==&gt; greater risk
2. greater risk ==&gt; greater return
3. greater risk ==&gt; non zero risk
4. consumer banks ==&gt; zero risk, low return
5. consumer banks ==&gt; fractional reserves</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>something doesn&#8217;t add up&#8230;</p>
<p>1. fractional reserves ==&gt; greater risk<br />
2. greater risk ==&gt; greater return<br />
3. greater risk ==&gt; non zero risk<br />
4. consumer banks ==&gt; zero risk, low return<br />
5. consumer banks ==&gt; fractional reserves</p>
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		<title>By: 7*6</title>
		<link>http://www.ravikiran.com/blog/classic/200712/zero-is-a-fraction-too/comment-page-1/#comment-86605</link>
		<dc:creator>7*6</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 17 Dec 2007 17:30:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.ravikiran.com/blog/classic/200712/zero-is-a-fraction-too/#comment-86605</guid>
		<description>The yield curve is my friend here RR. 
It says: on demand and &quot;liquid&quot; deposits give ~zero interest.
My point: so there should be ~zero risk investment on part of the bank -- this would preclude fractional reserves wunnit?

But let&#039;s continue to the right along the X axis of yield curve. The yields of consumer bank &quot;locked&quot; or &quot;fixed&quot; deposits are pathetic compared to what the market and investment banks/planners would give you. Why would you lock your money up then?
Because of the &quot;zero&quot; risk! But how do the banks make money then?

So my main point holds true throughout the yield curve: that banks seem to have this magical risk nullification machine that I want a piece of. That is the only explanation for FRB. Either that or swindling. Take your pick.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The yield curve is my friend here RR.<br />
It says: on demand and &#8220;liquid&#8221; deposits give ~zero interest.<br />
My point: so there should be ~zero risk investment on part of the bank &#8212; this would preclude fractional reserves wunnit?</p>
<p>But let&#8217;s continue to the right along the X axis of yield curve. The yields of consumer bank &#8220;locked&#8221; or &#8220;fixed&#8221; deposits are pathetic compared to what the market and investment banks/planners would give you. Why would you lock your money up then?<br />
Because of the &#8220;zero&#8221; risk! But how do the banks make money then?</p>
<p>So my main point holds true throughout the yield curve: that banks seem to have this magical risk nullification machine that I want a piece of. That is the only explanation for FRB. Either that or swindling. Take your pick.</p>
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