Comments on: Me in Pragati http://www.ravikiran.com/blog/classic/200810/me-in-pragati/ Where I torture reality till it confesses the truth Wed, 08 Sep 2010 03:02:20 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.0 By: The Examined Life » Blog Archive » The Model of Law Enforcement http://www.ravikiran.com/blog/classic/200810/me-in-pragati/comment-page-1/#comment-112251 The Examined Life » Blog Archive » The Model of Law Enforcement Sun, 12 Oct 2008 12:14:44 +0000 http://www.ravikiran.com/blog/?p=3059#comment-112251 [...] so happens that  my article in Pragati is around 200 words shorter than it should have been, because it was supposed to be one of a set [...] [...] so happens that  my article in Pragati is around 200 words shorter than it should have been, because it was supposed to be one of a set [...]

]]> By: The Acorn » Reading the Arthashastra: The rule of law http://www.ravikiran.com/blog/classic/200810/me-in-pragati/comment-page-1/#comment-112249 The Acorn » Reading the Arthashastra: The rule of law Sun, 12 Oct 2008 04:13:01 +0000 http://www.ravikiran.com/blog/?p=3059#comment-112249 [...] it is not known whether Ravikiran Rao referred to fourth chapter of Book I of the Arthashastra but his article on counter-terrorism [...] [...] it is not known whether Ravikiran Rao referred to fourth chapter of Book I of the Arthashastra but his article on counter-terrorism [...]

]]> By: froginthewell http://www.ravikiran.com/blog/classic/200810/me-in-pragati/comment-page-1/#comment-112219 froginthewell Wed, 08 Oct 2008 15:54:34 +0000 http://www.ravikiran.com/blog/?p=3059#comment-112219 Gaurav, "Strict" is not quite the word. Terrorism laws are not extra regulations, but <i>relaxation</i> of certain existing regulations for the police. Somewhat analogous to laws that allow soldiers to kill during war. In a developed country those laws aren't required because the police are efficient enough to overcome the "static friction" offered by regulations - just as bureaucracy in US isn't as stifling as the one in India. But given that our police aren't smart enough, laws may be required to ease the regulatory structure. Gaurav,

“Strict” is not quite the word. Terrorism laws are not extra regulations, but relaxation of certain existing regulations for the police. Somewhat analogous to laws that allow soldiers to kill during war.

In a developed country those laws aren’t required because the police are efficient enough to overcome the “static friction” offered by regulations – just as bureaucracy in US isn’t as stifling as the one in India. But given that our police aren’t smart enough, laws may be required to ease the regulatory structure.

]]> By: Gaurav http://www.ravikiran.com/blog/classic/200810/me-in-pragati/comment-page-1/#comment-112217 Gaurav Wed, 08 Oct 2008 11:23:29 +0000 http://www.ravikiran.com/blog/?p=3059#comment-112217 FiTW, I think that is a bit harsh. Even if there were stricter laws in place there should be enforcement for them to have any effect. On the other hand you are correct when you point out that reform of ordinary enforcement is a long term project and the present structure can not be relied upon to fight against terrorism. This means that even more necessary than legislating new laws is to set up an integrated force with a simple chain of command and appropriate powers for investigation and preemption with all necessary legal mandate. FiTW,

I think that is a bit harsh. Even if there were stricter laws in place there should be enforcement for them to have any effect. On the other hand you are correct when you point out that reform of ordinary enforcement is a long term project and the present structure can not be relied upon to fight against terrorism. This means that even more necessary than legislating new laws is to set up an integrated force with a simple chain of command and appropriate powers for investigation and preemption with all necessary legal mandate.

]]> By: froginthewell http://www.ravikiran.com/blog/classic/200810/me-in-pragati/comment-page-1/#comment-112216 froginthewell Wed, 08 Oct 2008 10:55:34 +0000 http://www.ravikiran.com/blog/?p=3059#comment-112216 I think that was one of your worst articles ever. You start by correctly stating the trade-off involved, using the door-knob analogy. But after that, like a leftie academic you focus entirely on the disadvantages with the side of the trade-off that you don't like. And it is also surprising that you, whose arguments often revolve around how we can't expect our bureaucracy to work properly, call for more efficient law enforcement - just like lefties demand that the bureaucracy function smoothly. Without a word about how such a thing can ever be ensured in practice. I think that was one of your worst articles ever. You start by correctly stating the trade-off involved, using the door-knob analogy. But after that, like a leftie academic you focus entirely on the disadvantages with the side of the trade-off that you don’t like.

And it is also surprising that you, whose arguments often revolve around how we can’t expect our bureaucracy to work properly, call for more efficient law enforcement – just like lefties demand that the bureaucracy function smoothly. Without a word about how such a thing can ever be ensured in practice.

]]> By: Gaurav http://www.ravikiran.com/blog/classic/200810/me-in-pragati/comment-page-1/#comment-112214 Gaurav Wed, 08 Oct 2008 08:18:04 +0000 http://www.ravikiran.com/blog/?p=3059#comment-112214 * I think it is a unnecessarily misleading term but unfortunately it has entered popular lexicon. * I think it is a unnecessarily misleading term but unfortunately it has entered popular lexicon.

]]> By: Gaurav http://www.ravikiran.com/blog/classic/200810/me-in-pragati/comment-page-1/#comment-112213 Gaurav Wed, 08 Oct 2008 08:17:04 +0000 http://www.ravikiran.com/blog/?p=3059#comment-112213 Oops the comment got cut off in the middle. Specifically you assert that having excessively strict laws/policies may actually hinder "war on terrorism"* rather than aid it but never give any evidence. Though you do explain that strict laws may make police pick up the easy target (innocent people), I am not convinced. Oops the comment got cut off in the middle. Specifically you assert that having excessively strict laws/policies may actually hinder “war on terrorism”* rather than aid it but never give any evidence. Though you do explain that strict laws may make police pick up the easy target (innocent people), I am not convinced.

]]> By: Gaurav http://www.ravikiran.com/blog/classic/200810/me-in-pragati/comment-page-1/#comment-112212 Gaurav Wed, 08 Oct 2008 07:51:06 +0000 http://www.ravikiran.com/blog/?p=3059#comment-112212 Most probably I am missing something but I am unconvinced by the article. Most probably I am missing something but I am unconvinced by the article.

]]> By: karthik http://www.ravikiran.com/blog/classic/200810/me-in-pragati/comment-page-1/#comment-112209 karthik Wed, 08 Oct 2008 04:20:46 +0000 http://www.ravikiran.com/blog/?p=3059#comment-112209 Once again, my apologies for bailing out. Life was in transition last month, as I had moved to a new city, and was yet to find a house - and consequently internet at home. Also i think one look at the quality and quantity of my september blog posts would've given you an idea about this.. Once again, my apologies for bailing out. Life was in transition last month, as I had moved to a new city, and was yet to find a house – and consequently internet at home.

Also i think one look at the quality and quantity of my september blog posts would’ve given you an idea about this..

]]> By: Maltesh http://www.ravikiran.com/blog/classic/200810/me-in-pragati/comment-page-1/#comment-112208 Maltesh Wed, 08 Oct 2008 04:16:04 +0000 http://www.ravikiran.com/blog/?p=3059#comment-112208 "Sohrabuddin Sheikh—who was allegedly shot in a fake encounter with police near Ahmedabad in November 2005—was almost certainly a murderer, an extortionist, and a burden on society. But it ought to be quite clear by now that he was not a terrorist." I think we first need to define what is terrorism. I believe a murderer is a terrorist and in most cases vice versa too. Need not necessarly be that he has to take up an AK47 or place a bomb in some dustbin. When intellectually strong Yahoo software programmer decides to use his programming skills to hack and spread terror - doesn't he count as a terrorist? Or does he just remain a hacker? It would have been nice to see what Karthik's arguments would have been. I some lean away from the position that you have taken. I believe when gangrene starts at the toes, it is better to cut the ankle off. I am sure the society is smart enough to bear that. I agree some of our laws are draconian enough to suggest chopping the head off - but such laws need revision not a complete dilution. “Sohrabuddin Sheikh—who was allegedly shot
in a fake encounter with police near Ahmedabad
in November 2005—was almost certainly a murderer,
an extortionist, and a burden on society.
But it ought to be quite clear by now that he was
not a terrorist.”

I think we first need to define what is terrorism. I believe a murderer is a terrorist and in most cases vice versa too. Need not necessarly be that he has to take up an AK47 or place a bomb in some dustbin. When intellectually strong Yahoo software programmer decides to use his programming skills to hack and spread terror – doesn’t he count as a terrorist? Or does he just remain a hacker?

It would have been nice to see what Karthik’s arguments would have been. I some lean away from the position that you have taken. I believe when gangrene starts at the toes, it is better to cut the ankle off. I am sure the society is smart enough to bear that. I agree some of our laws are draconian enough to suggest chopping the head off – but such laws need revision not a complete dilution.

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